was will sudo?

MoTw · 05.05.09

Hi!

Ich versuche nun schon seit mehreren Tage, Allegro zu kompilieren. Aber ich bin kein Root.
Also gebe ich ein:

Code:

sudo make install

Hier hapert's jedoch: Er nimmt weder das Root-Passwort noch nimmt er mein eigenes, nicht-root-Benutzerpasswort. Welches will der denn???

Danke für eure Antworten, der total verwirrte

MoTw :-[

VollPfosten · 05.05.09

Um per sudo Befehle als Superuser ausführen zu können, musst Du in der admin-Gruppe sein, also ein Administrator-Benutzer. Dann ist Dein eigenes Passwort gefragt.

MoTw · 05.05.09

ich bin aber nicht in der Admin-Gruppe. Was muss ich dann eingeben?

VollPfosten · 05.05.09

Dann geht's nicht. Verwende den admin-Account für die Installation oder mache Dich selbst für 1 Sitzung zum admin.

Ich kenne das Programm nicht, aber wenn Du nur ausprobieren willst, ob's geht, kannst Du auch mal in dem Verzeichnis nach der ausführbaren Datei suchen, die Du starten willst (kompiliert ist es wohl schon?), in das entsprechende Verzeichnis wechseln und ./programm eintippen. Typische Verzeichnisse für sowas sind "build" oder "bin".

Rastafari · 05.05.09

MoTw schrieb:
ich bin aber nicht in der Admin-Gruppe. Was muss ich dann eingeben?

Code:

su [I][COLOR="Navy"]ein_admin_kurzname[/COLOR][/I]

Dann bist du Admin - und darfst auch sudo.
(Verlassen der gewechselten Umgebung mit "exit" oder Ctrl-D)

MoTw · 06.05.09

ok, jetzt hat es funktioniert. Ich habe Allegro erfolgreich kompiliert und wollte dann damit ein anderes Programm kompilieren. Allerdings funktioniert das auch wieder nicht!

Wenn ich

Code:

make -d

eingebe, kommt als Error-Ausgabe folgendes:

Code:

[SIZE=1]bash-3.2$ make -d
GNU Make 3.81
Copyright (C) 2006  Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software; see the source for copying conditions.
There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A
PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

This program built for i386-apple-darwin9.0
Reading makefiles...
Reading makefile `Makefile'...
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 No implicit rule found for `all'.
  Considering target file `makeobj'.
   File `makeobj' does not exist.
    Considering target file `makeobj.o'.
     File `makeobj.o' does not exist.
     Looking for an implicit rule for `makeobj.o'.
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     Found an implicit rule for `makeobj.o'.
      Considering target file `makeobj.cc'.
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     Finished prerequisites of target file `makeobj.o'.
    Must remake target `makeobj.o'.
g++ -O -g -DMAKEOBJ   -c -o makeobj.o makeobj.cc
Putting child 0x0010ae20 (makeobj.o) PID 2431 on the chain.
Live child 0x0010ae20 (makeobj.o) PID 2431 
/var/tmp//cc7i3Lg5.s:unknown:FATAL:can't create output file: makeobj.o
Reaping losing child 0x0010ae20 PID 2431 
make: *** [makeobj.o] Error 1
Removing child 0x0010ae20 PID 2431 from chain.[/SIZE]

Das ganze natürlich als Administrator gestartet. Warum kann er makeobj.o nicht erstellen?!

Rastafari · 06.05.09

MoTw schrieb:
Warum kann er makeobj.o nicht erstellen?!

Bevor das Gestöpsel losgeht.... was sagt denn ein

Code:

ls -Ole /var/tmp

Ach ja... Der verwendete Admin hat natürlich Schreibrecht auf das Ziel des Builds?
Eher (noch) nicht, oder? Ist wahrscheinlich dein eigener Ordner, wo der bestenfalls Leserechte hat?

MacMark · 07.05.09

Wer auf OS X entwickelt und daher zwangsläufig laufend neue Programme erstellt und diese installiert, sollte meines Erachtens besser als Admin arbeiten. Alles, was unter /Applications abgelegt wird, sollte User root und Gruppe admin gehören. Ein chown erfordert root, sprich sudo als Admin.

MoTw · 07.05.09

Rastafari schrieb:
Bevor das Gestöpsel losgeht.... was sagt denn ein

Code:

ls -Ole /var/tmp

Ach ja... Der verwendete Admin hat natürlich Schreibrecht auf das Ziel des Builds?
Eher (noch) nicht, oder? Ist wahrscheinlich dein eigener Ordner, wo der bestenfalls Leserechte hat?

ls -Ole /var/tmp sagt folgendes:

Code:

total 56
-rw-rw-rw-  1 Admin-Name  wheel  -   48 25 Dez 13:37 com.apple.speech.synthesis.globals
-rw-r--r--  1 MoTw           wheel  - 9961  3 Mai 11:54 console.log
-rw-------  1 MoTw           wheel  -  243  5 Feb 20:37 crchkxFj8Ws
-rw-------  1 MoTw           wheel  -  334  5 Feb 20:37 crstkxLWZIV
-rw-------  1 MoTw           wheel  -  505  5 Feb 20:37 crxmlK7mwJT
drwx------  3 root             wheel  -  102  7 Mai 15:30 launchd
drwxrwxrwt  5 root             wheel  -  170  7 Mai 15:31 mds

Und der Ordner befindet sich im Ordner für alle Benutzer (Users/Shared/)

Rastafari · 07.05.09

MoTw schrieb:
Und der Ordner befindet sich im Ordner für alle Benutzer (Users/Shared/)

Legst du selbst (irgendwo) einen Ordner an, bekommt er (und üblicherweise auch der Inhalt) folgende Rechte:

Für dich selbst: Lesen/Schreiben
Für die Gruppenangehörigen: Nur lesen
Für alle anderen: Nur lesen

Sobald du im Terminal mit "su ..." die Identität wechselst, bist du (innerhalb dieser Sitzung) ein anderer Benutzer. Für dieses Umfeld bist du also plötzlich "alle anderen", und nicht mehr du selbst.
Dementsprechend hast du (als der durch "su ..." aufgerufene Benutzer) nur noch Leserecht.

Um den Ordner mit Schreibzugriff für wirklich alle auszustatten, benutze entweder im Bereich "Sharing und Zugriffsrechte" der Finder-Info die Aktion "auf alle Unterobjekte anwenden", oder...

Code:

chmod -R a+rwX  "/Users/Shared/Bla/Blubb/Build_Ordner"

Der Eigentümer des Objekts muss das tun. Sollte einleuchtend sein, dass das nicht jeder darf.

Goglo · 12.05.09

MacMark schrieb:
Wer auf OS X entwickelt und daher zwangsläufig laufend neue Programme erstellt und diese installiert, sollte meines Erachtens besser als Admin arbeiten.

Auch Entwickler arbeiten als normale User. Erst wenn alles entwickelt & getestet ist, dann wird's installiert. Und da ist dann wieder der Admin gefragt.

Üblicherweise liegen die sourcen im home-verzeichnis des Entwicklers und werden dort auch compiliert. Ein "make install" schiebt dann die executables an die richtige Stelle.

Goglo · 12.05.09

VollPfosten schrieb:
Dann geht's nicht. Verwende den admin-Account für die Installation oder mache Dich selbst für 1 Sitzung zum admin.

Nein. in /etc/sudoers können auch normale user sudo-able gemacht werden. Einfach die root-Zeile mit dem eigenen user "foobar" unter die Zeilen

# User privilege specification
root ALL=(ALL) ALL
%admin ALL=(ALL) ALL
foobar ALL=(ALL) ALL

kopieren. (übrigens macht die Zeile mit %admin die Administratoren sudo-able.)

Rastafari · 12.05.09

Goglo schrieb:
Nein. in /etc/sudoers können auch normale user sudo-able gemacht werden....

...und damit die sinnvolle Trennung zwischen Admin und Normalbenutzer zerstört.
Tust du das, kannst du den Benutzer auch gleich zum Admin machen, dessen Privilegien gibst du ihm ja sowieso alle. Sehr schlau, Buddy. Echt clever. Wo lebst du, in Schilda?
:-c :-c :-c

Goglo · 15.05.09

Nein, lieber Rastafari, so einfach wie Du dir das denkst, ist das nicht. Die sinnvolle Trennung zwischen Admin und User bleibt bestehen. Lediglich sudo wird dem User erlaubt. Und sudo gibt's nur in der Shell. Der Rest von OS X interessiert sich für diese Gleichstellung überhaupt nicht und reagiert folglich auch nicht drauf.

Du solltest das nächste Mal Dinge einfach mal ausprobieren, bevor Du unpassende Kommentare postest. Macht im Übrigen schlauer

Rastafari · 15.05.09

Goglo schrieb:
Nein, lieber Rastafari, so einfach wie Du dir das denkst, ist das nicht. Die sinnvolle Trennung zwischen Admin und User bleibt bestehen. Lediglich sudo wird dem User erlaubt.

Bullshit zum Quadrat.
Habe ich sudo, kann ich ALLES tun. Und wenn ich ein GUI Programm dafür brauche, dann mache ich mich eben mal schnell ganz offiziell zum Admin. Die Trennung hört gänzlich auf, zu existieren.
"Nuhr" und so...danke.

Goglo · 17.05.09

Du rufst die Sytemeinstellung per Shell auf? Du installierst Programme aus dem Terminal? Ah nein, dafür machst Du dich eben /offiziell/ zum Admin. Vielen Dank für die Bestätigung meiner Position.

Natürlich ist einem mit "sudo" grundsätzlich alles erlaubt. Aber man macht es aus Bequemlichkeit nicht. "root" oder ein Admin sollte am Rechner nicht arbeiten, weil er versehentlich früher mal Festplatten löschen, irgendwelche Systemeinstellungen oder heute Bundestrohjaner bzw. sonstiges Schadzeugs aus dem Netz installieren könnte. Das tut man nicht per "sudo", welches übrigens genau dafür entwickelt wurde, damit "root" nicht aus Bequemlichkeit permanent an der Kiste arbeitet. Mit "sudo" kann ein Normalsterblicher sich einloggen und wenn er kritisches Zeugs machen will, muß er eben ein "sudo"+Passwort davortippen. Das ist sozusagen die Terminal-Variante des Dialogs, den ein Admin erhält, will er systemrelevante Teile an OS X verändern. Ein Normalbenutzer muß Namen *und* Kennwort eines Admins eingeben - das ist durchaus vergleichbar mit "su <admin>", wenn die so aufgerufene Shell sich nach einem Befehl wieder beenden würde.

Also nochmal ums ganz klar zu machen: OS X kommt mit einem eingebauten sudo "auf" der GUI-Ebene. Und das in zwei Varianten: für Admins mit Passwortabfrage, Normalsterbliche müssen darüber hinaus noch den Namen eines Admins kennen. In der shell wird dieses über die "/etc/sudoers" gesteuert: Ein Admin darf laut Voreinstellung "sudo". Alle anderen müßten erst "su admin" machen um dann per "sudo" Relevantes verändern zu können. Dieser Umweg kann mit einem Eintrag in dieser Datei abgekürzt werden, genauso wie das Häkchen "darf Systemeinstellungen verändern" bei der Benutzerverwaltung auch abgekreuzt werden kann. Dann darf auch ein Nicht-Admin nach Passworteingabe Dinge, die sonst nur der Admin (ebenfalls nach Passworteingabe) dürfte.

Das ist halt die Funktionsweise von sudo. Die mußt Du aber erst noch verstehen lernen.

MacMark · 17.05.09

Goglo, erstens könnte man tatsächlich die Systemeinstellungen per Shell aufrufen und von dort steuern.
Zweitens ist das nicht nötig, denn die Systemeinstellungen sind nur ein GUI für bestimmte Systemcalls.
Drittens ist es viel einfacher, den direkten Weg zu gehen, und sich per Shell in die Admin-Gruppe zu verfrachten:

Code:

sudo dscl . append /Groups/admin GroupMembership joeuser

Das GUI merkt die Änderung allerdings erst nach einem Neustart.
Viertens kann man natürlich auch alle Programme per Terminal installieren. Das GUI nutzt hingegen nur eine kleinere Teilmenge aller Systemcalls.
Fünftens würde ich bezweifeln, daß Rastafari sich bei OS X in etwas irrt. Seine Trefferquote liegt über 99%. Du hast keine Ahnung, mit wem Du da sprichst. An Deiner Stelle würde ich mich nicht so weit aus dem Fenster hängen. Du machst Dich lächerlich.

Es gibt bei OS X eine Stufe mehr als bei anderen Unices (und bei Windows), was GUI-User angeht: Root, Admins (bei Windows gleichstark wie System!), Normale. Nur Admins dürfen sudo. Wer das aus Faulheit ändert, kompromittiert die Systemsicherheit.

OS X hat ein "sudo" in der GUI? Es dürfte sich eher um ein SUID-Programm handeln, das seinen Job nur dann macht, wenn man sich als Admin authentifiziert.
Kein Admin kann die Platte löschen, denn er ist nicht root.

Rastafari · 17.05.09

Goglo schrieb:
Du rufst die Sytemeinstellung per Shell auf?

Code:

osascript -e 'tell app "System Preferences" to activate'

Welches Schweinderl hättens denn gern?
Oder ist dir das zu "Apple"?
Dann eben so:

Code:

/Applications/System\ Preferences.app/Contents/MacOS/System\ Preferences &

Und? Welche Einstellung hättest du gern manipuliert?

Du installierst Programme aus dem Terminal?

Pff. Fällt dir wirklich nichts echt schwieriges ein? Das ist Erstklässlerstoff.

Code:

man installer

Das blöde für dich ist: Wenn ich das nicht will, bemerkst du es nicht mal.

Ah nein, dafür machst Du dich eben /offiziell/ zum Admin. Vielen Dank für die Bestätigung meiner Position.

Gar nichts ist "bestätigt". Sich selbst zum Admin befördern zu dürfen, ist das jetzt etwa nicht die finale Aufhebung der Rechtetrennung oder was?

Natürlich ist einem mit "sudo" grundsätzlich alles erlaubt.

Streiche das "grundsätzlich".

"root" oder ein Admin sollte am Rechner nicht arbeiten, weil er ... Bundestrohjaner bzw. sonstiges Schadzeugs aus dem Netz installieren könnte.

Das können eingeschränkte Nutzer auch.
Und gibst du ihnen sudo an die Hand, infizieren sie damit (unwissentlich) das gesamte System.
Womit die Privilegientrennung für die Katz gewesen wäre.
Und wenn ich dank "sudo" als eingeschränkter Nutzer plötzlich genauso sorgsam sein muss beim surfen im Web wie ein Admin, warum arbeite ich dann nicht gleich als solcher? Wo bleibt da noch der Sinn?

Ein Normalbenutzer muß Namen *und* Kennwort eines Admins eingeben

Genau das unterläufst du ja so elegant mit deinem "Tip".

Also nochmal ums ganz klar zu machen: OS X kommt mit einem eingebauten sudo "auf" der GUI-Ebene. Und das in zwei Varianten: für Admins mit Passwortabfrage, Normalsterbliche müssen darüber hinaus noch den Namen eines Admins kennen.

Die Authentifizierungssequenz des Security.framework steht mit sudo exakt in gar keinem Kontakt. Und ausserdem ist das ohnehin genau das, was du mit deinen guten Ratschlägen torpedierst.

Ein Admin darf laut Voreinstellung "sudo". Alle anderen müßten erst "su admin" machen um dann per "sudo" Relevantes verändern zu können. Dieser Umweg kann mit einem Eintrag in dieser Datei abgekürzt werden, genauso wie das Häkchen "darf Systemeinstellungen verändern" bei der Benutzerverwaltung auch abgekreuzt werden kann. Dann darf auch ein Nicht-Admin nach Passworteingabe Dinge, die sonst nur der Admin (ebenfalls nach Passworteingabe) dürfte.

Warum wohl hat Apple das so konfiguriert, hm?
Weil die dich nur damit nerven wollen oder wie?

Das ist halt die Funktionsweise von sudo. Die mußt Du aber erst noch verstehen lernen.

Ja, Meister. Hilf mich. Ich blond.

Goglo · 18.05.09

Bevor mir hier nun noch ausführlicher erklärt wird, wie man GUI-Programme und sonst noch was aus der shell aufrufen kann, indem man z.B. Programme schreibt, die man dann ja per sudo ausführen kann, möchte ich nochmal darauf hinweisen, wie das Thema aufkam. Da war jemand, der fragte, welches Passwort er bei sudo eingeben müßte. Nach einigen Tips kam dann MacMark auf die wundervolle Idee, als Entwickler solle man generell als Admin arbeiten. Das hielt ich (und halte es auch immer noch) für ausgemachten Blödsinn und machte daraufhin den Vorschlag, wie man als Normalo sudo (ohne Umweg über einen Admin-Account) benutzen kann. Mit dem Editieren einer normalen Konfigurationsdatei habe ich wohl ein Sakrileg gegen die Götter aus Cupertino begangen. Die Anklage lautet, die Trennung zwischen User und Admin aufgehoben zu haben. Ja, genau das habe ich getan - für sudo (in der shell und für genau einen Benutzer). Der Rest des Systems läuft so weiter wie bisher, weil die GUI ja eben nicht auf sudo aufsetzt, sondern einen eigenen Mechanismus hat - und auch haben muß. Mir ist es immer noch nicht klar, wo das Problem liegen soll. Es kommen abstruse Vorschläge, wie man mit Gewalt Dinge mit der Shell erledigt, die man sonst eigentlich per GUI macht. (z.B. wie man das Häkchen "darf Computer verwalten" per shell setzt, applescript aufruft oder Programme startet) Und es wird behauptet, ein Normalo könne das System irgendwie kaputtkriegen. Überlicherweise braucht er dazu sowohl nach, wie auch vor meinem "sodoers-Hack" Zugang zu einem Admin-account. (Oder er emuliert die GUI aus der Shell) Und die Behauptung nach meinem "Hack" genauso sorgsam wie ein Admin surfen zu müssen, stimmt wohl nur, wenn der Browser per sudo aus der Shell gestartet wurde (s.o. GUI-Emulation). Das ist möglich, wird wohl aber nur aus akademischen Gründen im Zuge dieser Dikussion gemacht werden.

Generell ist mir nicht klar, wo ihr das Problem habt. $user kennt $admin account und bastelt sich was, um bequemer einen "make install" per sudo machen zu können. (Statt "su <admin>/passwd" und "sudo make install/passwd" "exit" muß halt nur noch "sudo make install/passwd" eingegeben werden. Am einfachsten ist sicherlich die ganze Zeit als Admin zu arbeiten. Es sind aber schon zuviele Systeme aus Unachtsamkeit kaputt gegangen und/oder Daten verschwunden, um das als guten Tipp stehen zu lassen. Wenn man immer noch ein sudo davortippen muß, wenn ein "Permission denied" kommt, sollte das eigentlich Signal genug sein, um nochmal kurz das Hirn einzuschalten.

Also: ich stelle das profunde Detailwissen über OS X rastafaris nicht in Frage; Was ich in Frage stelle, ist seine Aussage, die mit meiner Lösung die generelle Trennung von User und Admin in Frage zu stellen. Es ist lediglich einem User mehr sudo erlaubt. So what? Das stellt die Authentifizierungsarchitektur nicht in Frage. Die Antwort hätte ich gerne vor dem Hintergrund, daß der User weiß was er tut und auch Zugang zu einem Admin-Account hat.

Die Aussage "Nur Mitglieder der Gruppe Admin dürfen sudo dürfen und das machst Du mit Deinem Tip ja kaputt und deshalb ist das ein böser Tip." möchte ich jetzt nicht als Begründung gelten lassen.

MacMark · 18.05.09

Goglo schrieb:
... Und es wird behauptet, ein Normalo könne das System irgendwie kaputtkriegen. Überlicherweise braucht er dazu sowohl nach, wie auch vor meinem "sodoers-Hack" Zugang zu einem Admin-account. ...

Nein er braucht keinen Admin, denn dank Deines "Hacks" darf dieser Normalo jetzt selbst sudo nutzen. Damit schrottet er das System nach Belieben.

Du weißt ganz offensichtlich nicht, was Du tust.

was will sudo?

Jonagold

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